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Rick A. Jacoby

Hi,

First, I like the web site name. I, too, am a staunch believer in Absolute Truth.

I was wondering if you had considered that it's possible people might not *actually* think they are worthless because their existence is random.

It's the *opposite* for some--feelings of despondency and worthlessness at the thought of a God/Goddess/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Spock/Imaginary Friend/Whatever creating them like a bacteria sample in a petri dish. Now *that* is a worthless existence to many--manipulated from the beginning of all time, the playthings of a supreme being--THAT, my friend, is a worthless life to many people.

I must also suggest that it is downright insulting when you claim that lack of a belief in a God makes someone unable to feel as though their actions have consequences. Do you really believe this? I must ask; some people really do think this way. Of course this isn't the case! Do athiests ever get arrested? Do they know what they're doing is wrong beforehand? Sure, they do! Probably at the same rate as Christians, per capita...humanity is weirdly predictable like that.

So your statement that lack of belief leads to the idea that actions have no consequences is, at best, silly--and at worst it is insulting and condescending, and you will anger or lose readers with lazy and fallacious logic like that.

Even your first statement is erroneus, and it is the closest to being accurate of the four. You say nothing is truly knowable to someone who doesn't believe in God. But that same person doesn't believe in God--oh, crap, see? You've made the same mistake as the logical contradiction of saying "There are no absolutes."

Since the person has analyzed this God person, and come to a conclusion (in this case that there isn't one), then they've probed the issue to their satisfaction--I'd say they found the subject *very* knowable, directly contradicting your sentiment.

I guess my point is...hell, there's no nice-sounding way to say this but I do mean it constructively:

Christians should stick to preaching scripture and telling scary stories, and leave the chore of logic and rationality and explaining how the universe actually functions to those who specialize in it.

DanJ

Rick A., thanks for the honest comments. Here are a few things to consider:

You mentioned that: "[If humans are] the playthings of a supreme being--THAT, my friend, is a worthless life..." I agree wholeheartedly. I can't understand religious people who have that type of perception of God having any basis for joy or purpose in life. Were that true, it would indeed be a dark existence.

You said: "it is downright insulting when you claim that lack of a belief in a God makes someone unable to feel as though their actions have consequences." I see your point, although technically that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm suggesting is that there is no authoritative basis (objective proof) for a purposeful life for those who believe their existence is random. They may feel purpose well enough, and may live wonderful lives; but as far as I can tell, the feelings of purpose they would feel have no basis outside of themselves. I'm willing to rethink this point, though, as I freely admit I could have this wrong.

You said: "So your statement that lack of belief leads to the idea that actions have no consequences is, at best, silly..." I agree - that would be a silly statement to make. Obviously actions have consequences. What I was pointing out is that without a creator, there is no way of interpreting those actions or consequences as morally right or wrong, purposeful or pointless - except by individual feelings. Hence, in a Creator-less world, there would be no "absolute" truth - just personal opinions about morality and the desirability of various consequences. And there would be no ultimate accountability for moral choices - just the "survival of the fittest."

Niwre

Hi, I think your two statements about the existence or absence of absolutes is not exhaustive and is based on a serious set of assumptions. Your immediate jump to the choice between God or Chance creating all things is a step too far too soon for me, and both are in my view not even mutually exclusive. If logic as we know it is a fair method to follow (BIG assumption, I know) we can falsify everything down to the bear truth of being (I am, full stop). All else is based on observation, perception and interpretation and cannot be universally true. That's absolute, but does not imply creation by a God. I further believe that this theory is not complete. The absolute truth is only absolute because we cannot follow the path any further, a bit like cells once being the smallest particles until we discovered atoms to take their place, until we discovered.....etc.

Daniel Jarvis


Excellent thoughts here, Niwre.  I guess I am surmising that there is either an ordered, intentional explanation for reality, or there is pure chance.  And, as logic appears to me, the most coherent explanation for intentional reality would be God/Intelligence.  If reality is not intentional, then Chance is only remaining answer (unintentional things are chance, the way I understand them).  I realize a mixture of the two is probable as we look around us - but still, one or the other had to be the ultimate cause.


You said: ...we can falsify everything down to the bear truth of being (I am, full stop). All else is based on observation, perception and interpretation and cannot be universally true. Thats absolute, but does not imply creation by a God...   I agree that the direct implication of being is not creation by a God, but there is an implication that if I am - and I did not create myself, something (unintentional nature/chance) or someone (intentional intelligence/God) created me. I certainly see that at many levels of this discussion, some faith assumptions, and some common sense assumptions must be made (or else the discussion itself would be nearly impossible :-).

To your final illustration regarding cells, atoms, etc. - I agree.  Our observations/interpretations are limited by our current perceptions, technologies, etc.  I am absolutely certain that there is a dramatic amount of information that we do not know, and maybe cannot know, about reality.  But, in your scenario, the discovery of atoms did not reverse or disprove the existence of cells - it merely rearranged our understanding of where cells fit into the big picture.  The existence of cells has remained absolute, but additional information has corrected (for now) our understanding of their makeup.  Couldnt the same be true of ourselves, God, etc.?  We may have enough information now to make a positive statement about their existence and even some coherent information about their purpose - but knowing full well that many more dots may be connected for us as we learn more?  

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An absolute truth, sometimes called a universal truth, is an unalterable and permanent fact. The concept of absolute truths - what they are and whether they exist - has been debated among many different groups of people. Philosophers have waded in the muck of defining absolute truth for millennia. For example, Plato believed that absolute truth existed, but that truth on earth was merely a shadow of great forms of absolute truth existing in the universe. Alternatively, many believe in relative truths, where facts may vary depending on the circumstances.

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I think your two statements about the existence or absence of absolutes is not exhaustive and is based on a serious set of assumptions.

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There are no absolutes that define reality. Everything is relative, and thus there is no actual reality. There is ultimately no authority for deciding if an action is positive or negative; right or wrong.

As it seems we are still discovering new perceptions of reality, but I still like this view, and it is quite philisophical.

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Manfred Dick

If you keep on working on Absolute Truth within an honest framework of mind, you are going to end up with God no matter what, because God is the Source of the Absolute Truth. This will occur if you believe in God or not.

If you think you know it limits your ability to learn……….

God is the A and Ω, the Beginning and End or the Nothingness (beyond existence) where everything begins and ends. (The initial cause) Don’t make a picture of God!
Everything comes out of Nothingness and disappears in to Nothingness.

The law of love = the fundamental law of the universe = the law of causation says
No one rewards or punishes us, but we ourselves.

Our Reality is merely an Illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Albert Einstein

Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world.

Reality is that which refuses to go away when I stop believing in it.

Time is an emergent concept which our mind creates.... however what we perceive as time is mostly an illusion... But Time is contained in every equation of existence...
If the foundation of existence is time, and time is an illusion then existence is an illusion or yust an experience......

All things in the universe are neither good nor bad, they are neutral. I’m with my mind (conscious or mainly subconscious) give everything its meaning.


Manfred Dick

God only is reality, nothing else is !!
He is Love, oneness, constancy, truth, eternity and infinity.....

Existence could never be caused by existence! The Initial cause is a god, beyond existence.

You know your god is man-made when he "loves" all the same people you do....

Manfred Dick

God is a singularity; hence ‘He Is’ beyond existence....
He has no opposite.

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.


In contrast Existence is a duality where opposites must exist.
Hence there is
no ‘good’ without the ‘bad’ or
no ‘cold’ without the ‘hot’.....

The ‘good’ could never exist without the ‘bad’....

where you find one thing, you will always find its opposite.
Thesis and antithesis are identical in nature, but different in degree
opposites are merely differing aspects of the same thing or event.


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Well truth is nothing but a fact,reality which one have to accept...Its obvious..There is nothing wrong in it...Although truth can hurt nit at the last it's necessity..

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